Episode Summary
Jane Friedman has spent 25 years working in the publishing industry, with a focus on business reporting and author education. Jane joins us to share her insights on the latest industry trends with her understanding of writing as a business.
Episode Notes
Jane Friedman has spent 25 years working in the publishing industry, with a focus on business reporting and author education. Her book, The Business of Being a Writer, received a starred review from Library Journal and is used as a classroom text by many writing and publishing degree programs. Jane joins us to share her insights on the latest industry trends with her understanding of writing as a business.
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Transcript
Kevin Tumlinson [00:00:01]:
You just tuned into the hippest way to start and grow your indie author career. Learn the ins, the outs, and all the all arounds of self publishing with the team from D2D and their industry influencing guests. You’re listening to Self Publishing Insiders with Draft2Digital.
Jim Azevedo [00:00:25]:
Hello, everybody, and welcome to Self Publishing Insiders. I’m your host, Jim Azevedo. I have the pleasure of leading marketing and corporate communications here at Draft2Digital. And today, it is my honor to welcome Jane Friedman to the show. Hi, Jane.
Jane Friedman [00:00:42]:
Hi, Jim. It’s great to be here.
Jim Azevedo [00:00:44]:
We’re so happy to have you. I was telling Jane backstage that I feel almost guilty because I have Jane all to myself this time, and she’s not in a conference atmosphere or on a panel with a bunch of other people, which is all ours, everybody. So I want to inform the audience that you guys, Jane’s here. So if you have questions about the industry, trends, issues, predictions, you know, this is your show. So please feel free to chime in, ask your questions there in the comments, and we’ll try to get to as many as possible. For the uninitiated, if anyone out there isn’t familiar with Jane, Jane Friedman has spent twenty five years working in the publishing industry with a focus on, business reporting and author education. Her book, The Business of Being a Writer from the University of Chicago Press, received a starred review from library journal, and is used as classroom text by many writing and publishing degree programs. A second edition releases this spring, which I have preordered through Apple Books.
Jim Azevedo [00:01:52]:
And I also wanna mention that it’s not in Jane’s biography here, but the, the business of being a writer is approaching 400 reviews on Amazon and is averaging well above four and a half stars. So congratulations on that, Jane. Thank you.
Jane Friedman [00:02:07]:
Thank you.
Jim Azevedo [00:02:08]:
Of course. So for our audience out there, I thought I would sort of break up this conversation or this episode into into three parts. The first part’s talking about changes that are afoot with Jane’s very popular, the hot sheet newsletter. And then in part two, I wanna talk about the book, The Business of Being a Writer, and, then the second edition, which is coming out April 18, I believe. Mhmm. Okay. And then after that, we’ll move into part three, which is change change change trends and issues that are impacting the book publishing industry. So with that, can we talk about the hot sheet? Can you describe for our viewers, you know, just what is the hot sheet? When did it start? What motivated you to start this major project? Mhmm.
Jane Friedman [00:03:07]:
Yeah. So the newsletter started ten years ago. It started off as a partner project with me and another journalist in the publishing industry. And our goal was to help writers understand what was happening, what changes were happening, on a business level primarily. Because when I would be at conferences or speaking to writers or just fielding emails, I don’t think this has changed since ten years ago, but there are there’s a lot of confusion about what exactly is happening. A lot of
Jim Azevedo [00:03:41]:
That hasn’t changed.
Jane Friedman [00:03:42]:
Again, that has not changed. A lot of anxiety, a lot of misinformation, a lot of, let’s say, not not the best sources, gossip, rumors spreading around. And so the point of the publication is to help people stay up to date on the industry without having to sift through, lots of different sources to figure out which who is correct here.
Jim Azevedo [00:04:08]:
Yeah.
Jane Friedman [00:04:08]:
So I like to think of it as a 360 degree view of what’s happening. I don’t
Jim Azevedo [00:04:14]:
Mhmm.
Jane Friedman [00:04:14]:
With with authors at the center, that’s that’s always been kind of the North Star. So whether it’s traditional publishing or self publishing or something changing with distribution or retail, we’re always thinking about or I’m always thinking now, it’s just my publication now. I’m always thinking about how does this affect the author and how might this affect their business going forward.
Jim Azevedo [00:04:35]:
That’s very obvious when you read through the hot sheet, which is required reading as far as I’m concerned for anybody who is planning to make a career out of their their writing, and it comes out every two weeks. Right?
Jane Friedman [00:04:47]:
That’s right. Yes. Although How many I’m just gonna say that’s changing, but I know we’re gonna get to that.
Jim Azevedo [00:04:54]:
We’re gonna get to that. How many sources do you review, or do you look at prior to each issue?
Jane Friedman [00:05:03]:
Oh, gosh. I would say if you count every single, like, newsletter that I subscribe to, it’s well over a hundred. That’s not saying I’m reading them word for word, but I So
Jim Azevedo [00:05:17]:
that wasn’t a typo that I read on a website. I’m like, oh my what? Oh my god.
Jane Friedman [00:05:22]:
No. It’s not a typo. In fact, you can kinda get a little bit of an idea of who I follow by just going to my Substack profile because so many people are on Substack and writing
Jim Azevedo [00:05:32]:
Yeah.
Jane Friedman [00:05:33]:
Industry stuff on Substack. So there are more than a hundred listed there, and that that doesn’t even get into all of the sources that aren’t on Substax. Some of them are international. Some of them are technology driven. Some of them are, like, media driven rather than publishing driven. Because obviously those areas affect publishing and writing too. AI, hello? So I’m trying to stay apprised of all of, various, publishing adjacent adjacent sectors.
Jim Azevedo [00:06:03]:
How do you distill all of that information? Because, again, like, the frequency of the publication I know, as of right now, it’s every two weeks, but still, that’s not a lot of time to go through it. I mean, there there’s just so much information coming out of daily.
Jane Friedman [00:06:20]:
Yes. Yes.
Jim Azevedo [00:06:21]:
Do you have a huge staff of people who are helping you out?
Jane Friedman [00:06:24]:
Well, it’s it it’s I do have some help, which it mainly takes the form of my husband who joined my business in 2019.
Jim Azevedo [00:06:35]:
Okay.
Jane Friedman [00:06:35]:
He’s not doing any writing and reporting, but he takes care of the administrative, the back end, the customer service, and what I would call the production of the newsletter. So, like, he loads it into the email service provider and onto the website and he handles all of the little bits and pieces so I can just focus on, the information gathering, research, and reporting of the material. I also have a copy editor and someone who’s like fact checking behind me.
Jim Azevedo [00:07:01]:
And
Jane Friedman [00:07:01]:
then I do occasionally have contributors. So in fact there’s one contributed column each time that’s about a title that’s appeared on a bestseller list. So those things, of course, offer a lot of support and I that allows me to focus just on current events, what’s happening right now, and what’s worth actually talking about. Because there’s so much noise. I mean, I I would say about at least half if not 60 to 70% of what I sift through, it’s not worth mentioning to a writer. It’s not gonna matter in a week or two weeks or maybe six months.
Jim Azevedo [00:07:37]:
Yeah. Yeah. It’s and it’s very apparent when you go through the through the newsletter, when it comes out every week. As a as a reader, I’m thinking, okay. I could see where this matters. And and sometimes you just tell them, like, this is why it matters to
Jane Friedman [00:07:49]:
you and to your career,
Jim Azevedo [00:07:50]:
and this is what it means long term. That’s really interesting. Why and you mentioned in the hot sheet, that came out yesterday that there are some changes coming up for the hot sheet. So what’s what is what’s changing? It’s not going away, is it? What what’s going on? Let us know.
Jane Friedman [00:08:09]:
So it’s not going away. But the the newsletter hasn’t changed that much since it came out initially in 2015 when I had a business partner. And, you know, so it’s retained the same name, the same format. There have been modest changes, but nothing dramatic. And I’ve especially with the new edition of my book coming out this spring, which we’ll discuss, I felt like it was time to for a much needed realignment where everything is concentrated at my main website, which I’m most well known for. That’s janefreedman.com. Because I also have material that’s actively publishing there. That’s where people generally sign up for the stuff that I offer.
Jane Friedman [00:08:50]:
Mhmm. And a lot of people can’t even remember the name of this paid newsletter. People get it wrong all the time, which I’m not offended oh, yes. And and I’m not offended by it. It’s just like, I know there’s so much out there. It’s hard to, like, remember. But people don’t forget my name. So, ultimately, what’s gonna happen is everything’s gonna come under, the branding of my name, the the name of the newsletter which will change.
Jane Friedman [00:09:16]:
And I’m also going to make it weekly because the newsletter is just getting too long to be frank. It’s like I think it’s it I call in the recent issue I said it kind of lands in your inbox like a lead balloon because I think I
Jim Azevedo [00:09:29]:
know say that.
Jane Friedman [00:09:31]:
I hear from readers. They’re like, yeah. I save it for when I have the time or I don’t always get to all of it. And, you know, it’s a That’s not
Jim Azevedo [00:09:38]:
such a bad thing though. It’s I mean, because But I’ve I want people to read it. I want people to read it.
Jane Friedman [00:09:46]:
But yes.
Jim Azevedo [00:09:47]:
But it’s very thorough. I mean, you do the work, and it’s it’s so obvious that you do the work behind the scenes to and not only inform us, educate us, but to to put to get rid of all the the unnecessary bits. So you kinda you really do get to the point.
Jane Friedman [00:10:04]:
So Yeah. So I do think the nature of, of, like, the reporting and and the research that I’m doing, none of that’s gonna change. But I am going I think by going weekly, it’ll it won’t be as much to go through each time. And so there’ll be, like, one long form piece per issue along with lots of updates that people need to know about.
Jim Azevedo [00:10:26]:
Okay. Is the subscription price going to remain the same or is it changing as well?
Jane Friedman [00:10:31]:
It’s remaining the same.
Jim Azevedo [00:10:33]:
Okay. What is that? I mean, do you mind?
Jane Friedman [00:10:36]:
Oh, sure. It’s currently, it’s, $79 per year. And that’s if you have access to the archive. And that’s the pricing that’s going to, be moving forward once everything switches over to the site. There is a cheaper level currently, which I’m not gonna offer. That’s email only. But after the switch over, just 79.
Jim Azevedo [00:10:58]:
Well, that’s that’s a bargain. I mean, that’s not that’s a no brainer as far as as I’m concerned. Are you gonna let us know what the name change is gonna be? Is it gonna be based on your name? It’s gonna be I mean, you don’t have to tell us.
Jane Friedman [00:11:13]:
It’s gonna be based on my name. So I’ll leave it at that. In a in a I would say about two weeks, everyone’s gonna know exactly what the change is.
Jim Azevedo [00:11:22]:
Excellent. Excellent. I just wanna say really quickly that I see a bunch of questions coming in already. So thanks to the audience out there. Keep them coming, and I promise we’ll get to them. I knew people were look looking forward to you being on the show, Jane. That’s excellent. Is there anything else that you wanted to add about the hot sheet before we move into the next topic?
Jane Friedman [00:11:44]:
Nope. Let’s move on.
Jim Azevedo [00:11:46]:
Alright. So the next thing we were going to talk about is you have this big book release coming up. The second edition of the business of being our writer is coming out, on April 18. You can order it now on preorder. I did. I know I mentioned that earlier. Now when it came to the first edition, just how massive of of an endeavor was the first edition? Because when you go through it, even if you’re just looking at the table of contents, it is just so thoughtfully organized, and how it’s broken up into five different parts. So we can we start there? Just was it just a massive years long project for you?
Jane Friedman [00:12:28]:
I would say it took me around a year to write it. Really? I would say it was essentially like doing a brain dump, and not all of the material was, let’s say, a % from scratch because I’ve been writing and reporting on the industry for so long. I’ve got quite an archive of content. I have so many classes. I did something with the great courses where I essentially had to write out a transcript of every single lecture, and I was, I had per the rights to reuse that material in written form. So that also helped me, you know, get the book done in a in the space of a year. And so it really goes through I I was approached by the publisher to do a book like this. I didn’t necessarily.
Jane Friedman [00:13:14]:
I’d my dirty secret is I actually don’t like writing books. It’s very long process.
Jim Azevedo [00:13:20]:
Well, you’re already here first folks.
Jane Friedman [00:13:24]:
It’s it’s more work than I wanna do. So
Jim Azevedo [00:13:29]:
We understand.
Jane Friedman [00:13:31]:
It’s, it so the publisher wanted something that could that would really be used in the creative writing classroom to help Yeah. Especially degree seeking students understand what it was gonna take, to earn a living from their writing or to pursue writing meaningfully as a career. And so I kinda go through not just book publishing, but also magazine publishing and the online media space. And then I also get into things like business models and what it means to earn a living from your writing because at least for anyone who’s traditionally publishing, it’s it’s almost never through book sales. That’s not where the money is coming from. Not initially, anyway. Mhmm. And so you have to move through those early difficult years in a way that gives you it has to be sustainable.
Jane Friedman [00:14:21]:
You have to, like, essentially build up a back list, or build up a brand or build up a platform that will then become become much easier to monetize the further you get into your career.
Jim Azevedo [00:14:34]:
Yeah. And we talked a little bit before we went on camera, but I was telling you that I’ve met so many authors through the years here. Some of them never expected to become successful. They were just following their passions, writing book after book after book, Then all of a sudden, it’s like, oh, hey. My books are selling. Yeah. Oh my gosh. I have a business.
Jim Azevedo [00:14:54]:
Like, I don’t know what to do next. And and that’s what really struck me about the book and its organization and how, you laid it out. I noticed that book one or the first edition is broken into five parts or it’s organized into five parts for the part one of this covering the basics, the first steps. Part two is understanding the publishing industry. And, like, as you’ve already covered, it’s it’s more than books, everybody. Yep. Part three is is the longest section, getting published. It’s very thorough.
Jim Azevedo [00:15:27]:
You cover all of the different approaches, and it offers just a ton of how to advice covering the traditional approach, the indie approach, freelance, and even more. And then part four and five are super interesting because then you’re you’re starting to move into the writer as an entrepreneur Mhmm. And how writers make money. So I wanted to ask you, why now? Why now for the second edition of the book? It’s ten years later. Mhmm. It’s not like anything’s happened during the past ten years.
Jane Friedman [00:16:06]:
Well, I mean, this so why the second edition now? I mean, the the most direct answer is my publisher said it was time. But I also Publishers. I know. Obviously, there were things in the book that were becoming dated. Especially whenever I was talking about online media, social media, those elements of platform building and marketing. It’s it’s, you know, the I don’t feel like you can have a lot of confidence in that book when you see all of the mentions of things that don’t exist anymore. And you know I wasn’t even thinking at the time I need to future proof this book although to some extent I don’t think that’s possible. Yeah.
Jane Friedman [00:16:49]:
Yeah. So the other thing that happened aside from just changes in the industry and in the media especially with the magazine industry, huge huge changes there. I was thinking about how writers build a career differently. So over the last decade, the way I like to teach or the way I like to try to set expectations, all of that has shifted. And so that means the organization of the book has shifted as well. In a nutshell, because I don’t want I don’t wanna spend too much time, going through the technical bits. I feel like mindset is perhaps one of the most important things going into this. And I know that often mindset and business issues, people don’t link those two things.
Jane Friedman [00:17:39]:
But if you
Jim Azevedo [00:17:40]:
You mean the mindset of your of your reader or the mindset of you as the author of this?
Jane Friedman [00:17:44]:
You you as the author. You the mindset of you as a writer, what it means to be pursuing writing as a career, what it means to earn money from your career. Because the industry and all of the, like, all of the voices or opinions you’re gonna hear, there is so much cynicism and negativity and, there’s so many stumbling blocks. Some of them are internal, some of them are external. But I find that these tend to short circuit people at very early stages before they’ve even really given something a chance. So I address some of those mindset issues upfront and then I go into platform building for better or worse. I I have a really hard time even just talking about platform today because I think it’s overemphasized and there’s so many bad messages surrounding author platform that continue all the time especially from the major media like saying you know, oh you you now have to be on TikTok in order to be a successful author which is false. Yeah.
Jane Friedman [00:18:46]:
And so I feel I felt like I have to address the elephant in the room before we can move forward. And so I address the platform issue in its own part before moving on to to things like here’s how the industry works, here’s how you get published, here’s how you build a business model.
Jim Azevedo [00:19:04]:
Yeah. Love it. I like how you address mindset first because I would assume that a lot of authors who go through that session or through that part of the book are like, oh, okay. She she hears me. I’m seen, and I’m not alone. And I I thought that, oh my gosh. I’m never gonna be able to do this. And here you are saying, yes.
Jim Azevedo [00:19:21]:
You can. There are a lot of authors like you who have done it before.
Jane Friedman [00:19:25]:
Yes. Yes. It’s possible. I think a lot of people put too much stock in things like talent, or trying to figure out if they have what it takes. And it’s like, on some level, you’re never gonna know if you have talent or if you have what it takes. You just have to start practicing, like, practicing the writing, practicing the business, rather than getting caught up in the existential, like, circling the drain of the existential issues and the self doubt and all the rest of it.
Jim Azevedo [00:19:56]:
Yeah. Because then you’re then you’re paralyzed, and you have to embrace just know that it’s not gonna be good the first time around, the first draft. And you’ve probably heard I’ve heard from so many best selling authors who have said time and time again, the first draft is just awful. Like, god awful. They wouldn’t want anybody to see it, but they get it out of their heads and onto the paper, and then they can kinda mold it from there. Exactly. I’m looking forward to it. It’s two months, you know, seems like such a long time, so I wanna get my hands on this.
Jim Azevedo [00:20:29]:
But shall we switch gears yet again and Yes. Talk about what’s kinda going on in the industry?
Jane Friedman [00:20:38]:
Absolutely.
Jim Azevedo [00:20:40]:
Alright. Let’s do that. And let’s start this time. Usually, I’m still guilty of kind of, like, taking over the conversation, getting all my questions answered. So this time, I wanna start with questions and comments from our our audience out there. Start here with John. Hey, John. Thanks for joining today.
Jim Azevedo [00:20:59]:
John asks, what are you hearing about how our new administration’s philosophy may impact the book business?
Jane Friedman [00:21:10]:
So the I I would say that the two biggest concerns, maybe three biggest concerns
Jim Azevedo [00:21:14]:
Mhmm.
Jane Friedman [00:21:15]:
Are tariffs
Jim Azevedo [00:21:17]:
k.
Jane Friedman [00:21:18]:
Book bans or book challenges, and then funding, especially, like, National Endowment for the Arts, nonprofit types of funding. I’m not saying it’s limited to those three areas, but those are, like, I would say the three biggest top of mind.
Jim Azevedo [00:21:37]:
Yeah.
Jane Friedman [00:21:37]:
The tariffs is something, something that has been dealt with before when, the Trump administration had its first turn. So in 2016. So there were tariffs placed, on products coming from China. And for those who don’t know, traditional publishing in particular relies a lot on Chinese printing. And so when those tariffs were applied, you know, there it was also, you know, towards the end of that, administration, you know, we had the pandemic, which was making things even more complicated for sourcing, printing, paper, ink, other materials. The containers, I think everyone might remember the container ships just sitting around.
Jim Azevedo [00:22:20]:
Oh, yeah.
Jane Friedman [00:22:21]:
So there was a lot of upheaval which actually because of all of that, I think the industry, generally speaking, has become more adaptable, flexible, has sought out, other ways of of getting things done on the production side, to help protect themselves in the event of, let’s say, another round of tariffs. So I think one of the biggest concerns I’m hearing about, and I’m not personally affected by this because I’m not, you know, I’m not involved in gathering raw materials for books, so I have to rely on other people and and what they’re saying. But what what would be most harmful is if, I believe, is if tariffs were to be applied to Canadian paper or inks coming in because it’s not something where The US market is suddenly going to be able to produce these papers or inks that Canada has been providing us with. So it’s who does it serve? Because it’s not gonna move manufacturing to The US. So I think that so far though, it looks like that’s that might be off the table, but who knows? This is this is part of why, you know, the administration is, let’s say, not exactly, orderly. So you just never know what’s gonna happen next. And so if you follow the book industry study group, they’re having consistent sessions for publishers and other people who procure materials about here’s what we do if a happens or if b happens or if x y z happens. So keep an eye on the tariffs for the book materials issue.
Jane Friedman [00:24:04]:
Canadians are also worried about what would happen if their books, have tariffs supplied coming into the country, which, of course, they do not wanna see. Mhmm. Okay. So the second issue are the the book challenges, the book bans, you know, even the term itself is political. But just I I think everyone has seen that there are a number of lawsuits that are underway by the publishers themselves, the big five publishers, the authors guild, even specific authors like John Green who have been affected. So for those who don’t know, there are some states like Idaho, Florida, Iowa, Texas. They’ve put into place laws that pull books out of school libraries or out of public libraries for certain types of content, usually sexual content, LGBTQ content.
Jim Azevedo [00:24:54]:
Yeah.
Jane Friedman [00:24:55]:
And in Idaho in particular, you know, it’s it’s a very broad law that was put into place. It’s a book with sexual content period regardless of literary merit. And so in some cases because of the threat of librarians, you know, losing their jobs or you know in some in some states I think there’s even threat of imprisonment. Let’s hope that would never happen. But because it’s so hard for them to follow the rules or do what’s required, they just take the books down indefinitely, and they remove them from the shelves. And so not even, you know, even the adults have a hard time accessing these books. So anyway, we’re seeing lawsuits against, these sorts of laws. And in Florida, the publishers actually, at this point have kind of won their case, and I believe the schools.
Jane Friedman [00:25:46]:
I believe I think it was school libraries were forced to kind of back down on some level, because of first amendment issues.
Jim Azevedo [00:25:53]:
Mhmm.
Jane Friedman [00:25:54]:
So we’re I think we’re gonna continue to see these things play out. We’re not gonna see the Department of Justice, continue their cases because when Biden was in office, of course, he was, part of, of fighting, these laws in the states. But as soon as Trump came into office, he stopped, he stopped all of that. But that doesn’t mean the publishers or the authors are going to stop bringing those cases. Alright. So the you know, we’re watching those. And
Jim Azevedo [00:26:24]:
k.
Jane Friedman [00:26:25]:
There is fear in the writing community that especially from romance authors, anyone who’s writing material that has sexual content in it, there’s fear that their materials are going to somehow be prevented from sale or being available in libraries. It’ll be somehow classified as pornography. I don’t think the laws are really reaching in that direction. I could be wrong. I but I don’t see that coming to pass. I think it right now, we’re really looking at school libraries and public libraries being most affected. And then the third issue is funding. So for example, the National Endowment for the Arts just really changed everything that they’re doing for the upcoming grants.
Jane Friedman [00:27:15]:
They had, like, a Challenge America, grant that was supposed to focus on underrepresented communities. That’s all gone now. They’re now focusing on grants that, they’re they’re seeking grants that would celebrate the two hundred and fiftieth, anniversary of America. And so they’re going to actually hold for those who are interested in any grants, they’re actually holding an informational session next week for anyone like a Zoom, if you wanna hear about the new guidelines and and requirements. And I don’t believe this was part of the requirements before. I think this is new and and in line with Trump’s new executive orders. Mhmm. That’s, if you’re applying for a grant, you can’t have any sort of DEI program or you have to abide by all of the executive orders that he has issued thus far.
Jane Friedman [00:28:05]:
So, you know, it’s it’s an interesting time to be a nonprofit in the arts especially if you’re looking for government funding. But I guess I take, for those who care about the NEA and I do, I’ve served on some of these grant panels that offer funding to writers and literary organizations. So I’ve I’ve seen the process up close. I know what this money means to these organizations.
Jim Azevedo [00:28:29]:
Mhmm.
Jane Friedman [00:28:31]:
I’m at least heartened that the NEA is not on the chopping block. That it’s it appears like it’s going to continue to be funding. Continue to be funding the arts so far. But we’ll see. You know, I think it’s again, it’s a it’s a it’s kinda chaotic. You don’t know day to day exactly what’s going to happen.
Jim Azevedo [00:28:50]:
Yeah. Got it. And then not to mention just the sheer amount of information and news that’s coming in. The news cycle is just it’s off the charts. It’s so exhausting. Yeah. So I can’t imagine just doing what you’re doing and trying to distill all this information for the rest of us.
Jane Friedman [00:29:07]:
It’s it’s really this is like, the political situation right now as far as its intersection with publishing, I would say at the moment, it’s 90% noise. I it’s for me, as someone who’s trying to help writers understand what’s happening, I think actually one of the greatest services I can provide is only saying something when I think it’s going when I have some, like, really large degree of confidence that it’s gonna matter. Because I think if I were trying to keep up day to day with all of the little changes, most of them I don’t think would matter in a month. I recently read an article that said, you know, back in December, if you had went into a coma on December 1 and woke up on December 31, you would actually be better informed at the end of it than someone who had been
Jim Azevedo [00:29:58]:
Really?
Jane Friedman [00:29:58]:
Conscious the entire time. And so I’m just I I think about that frequently. I don’t want to add to people’s anxiety when there’s so much we just don’t know.
Jim Azevedo [00:30:10]:
That’s an excellent point. That’s a very good point. Jane, I wanted to ask you about, because it comes up every time, you know, and the newsletter and just every time at a conference or a webinar. It’s in this it’s artificial intelligence. So can we talk about AI and rights licensing? Because currently, I know what there are, like, several dozen lawsuits that are going on right now that are pending between content creators and AI companies. And was it yesterday or the day before that, Thompson Reuters won the first major AI copyright suit in The US?
Jane Friedman [00:30:49]:
That’s correct.
Jim Azevedo [00:30:50]:
Which was notable because the judge threw out the, the fair use clause. He was like, no.
Jane Friedman [00:30:56]:
Yes. That was a very unique case. I don’t I don’t know if I wanna get into the particulars of it because I’m not an expert on that particular case, but it’s a very unique case. I would recommend people go look at it because it has to do with making, like, like, the Thompson Reuters material is, it’s related to their Westlaw database, which is about interpreting case law. Mhmm. Anyway, so AI is another area whether it’s a high noise to signal ratio. And you and I’m always debating how much of this do I really report out or try to summarize or analyze because it could change tomorrow. That said, I have a I am a firm belief that AI licensing is going to be a thing indefinitely, that there are going to be collective licensing agencies that handle the licensing of books and other materials, for AI models to train on.
Jane Friedman [00:31:54]:
And I think we’re starting to see too some of the different types of licenses that will be understood. Like, created by humans is the one that’s emerged for the writing and publishing community. This is started by the former, CEO of of Scribd or Everand now, if if you’re familiar with that ebook subscription service or digital book subscription service. His name is Tripp Adler. So he’s got a lot of funding for this initiative, and they’re partnered with the authors guild, to offer this licensing solution directly to authors. So they don’t have any AI companies on board yet, but they’re now accepting authors who wanna sign up and make their materials available for license. So the three licensing, types that they’re looking at as of today are just straight AI model training. So the this would be, you know, like, for a new model that’s being developed and they want your books for training.
Jane Friedman [00:32:51]:
And that would be essentially like a one time use licensing fee for training that model. And if they wanna train a different model or a future model, they have to come back and pay the licensing fee again. Now how they monitor that, I I cannot tell you. But let’s assume that they’re able to monitor it and how often your material is used to train a model. The other type which I find very interesting is the rag model, or the reference model. So this means using books, kind of in real time to help satisfy queries in AI models. So if someone is trying to do research through an AI model, tell me the best, you know, five experts on the publishing industry and and and cite blah blah blah. Tell me what the best book sales are in this category, whatever.
Jane Friedman [00:33:43]:
It will come back, and give you the information you’re looking for with citations that you can actually click on and and you’ll it will tell you here’s the source, here’s where it came from, it might quote it. So there’s licensing for that now. And if you look at publications like the Atlantic or news journalism organizations when they’re making these deals with companies like OpenAI, there’s often some component of that included. And obviously, that has to be on an ongoing basis, because information changes. There’s new information. It’s updated or it goes out of date or it’s pulled down. And so created by humans imagines that’s gonna be a monthly sort of fee. So that the the AI companies will be paying to have continual access if they need to reference it.
Jim Azevedo [00:34:34]:
Oh, that’s interesting. Okay.
Jane Friedman [00:34:36]:
The third type which they don’t offer yet, but this is where I think authors get really, really anxious. Not that the other two don’t make them anxious,
Jim Azevedo [00:34:44]:
but I think
Jane Friedman [00:34:45]:
I think it’s the third one that is the stuff of nightmares for some people. This is, the transformative use license where your books can be used to create something new. So imagine if Stephen King licensed his entire backlist for transformative use, which would allow the person who purchased that license to generate new Stephen King works or works in the style of Stephen King. And then I guess, depending on what the license says, maybe you could either share, sell, profit, profit share. I don’t know. But that’s what we mean by transformative. You’re you’re creating some sort of derivative work. It could be an app.
Jane Friedman [00:35:27]:
It could be some sort of chatbot. You know, you now you get to chat with Stephen King, the author, because it’s this chatbot’s been trained in all all of his novels. So there’s some interesting like, I think some this is already happening in some places. Like, you can go there’s some authors who have partnered with AI companies to offer this sort of chatbot or service or, a sort of talk with the book service. There’s even there are a handful of publishers who are experimenting with that when they have authors who are open to it. But I think the the thing to underline here is that the default so far, the default understanding is that authors own these rights. They can’t be exploited unless permission has been given or there is a license in place. Now the publisher might help facilitate as Harper Collins did like they Harper Collins facilitated a deal.
Jane Friedman [00:36:25]:
I it was with Microsoft for a new training of a new model. And so Harper Collins went to its entire author, list and said, we have this opportunity. This is what you’ll be paid. This is the split. Like, we’re gonna get some money. You’re gonna get some money. Are you in? Are you out? But I you know, this could happen through publishers. It could happen through literary agents.
Jane Friedman [00:36:49]:
It could happen through licensing, mechanisms, collective licensing agencies like created by humans. But you will have a choice. And I don’t think that the just like the Thomson Reuters case, I don’t think we’re gonna see a landscape where the works are just plucked from pirated databases or whatever and used to train without the author’s permission. I it’s really hard to imagine that happening given how widespread we are legal licensing is now. If you take a look at all of the licensing deals that have happened, I mean, there are hundreds at this point with the major models. So I do see I mean, they’re definitely hedging their bets. Right? They don’t want when they make these deals, when OpenAI makes a licensing deal, there’s a clause in there that says, you’re not gonna sue us now for any past misdeeds, are you? So this is why, you know, the New York Times, their lawsuit for those who don’t know, they’re they’re suing open AI. They have not made any sort of agreement to license.
Jim Azevedo [00:37:55]:
And didn’t they try to work work work in an agreement before the lawsuit? Weren’t they trying to come up with some yeah.
Jane Friedman [00:38:01]:
They did. They were trying to come to an agreement and, you know, the the rumor is OpenAI said you value your content too highly. You are asking too much and the New York Times ultimately was offended and like, okay. We’re gonna sue you now. I think, ultimately, they probably will settle.
Jim Azevedo [00:38:19]:
Okay.
Jane Friedman [00:38:20]:
Or I think the New York Times is likely to get a very big payout. We we we shall see.
Jim Azevedo [00:38:25]:
That’s a good point, though. Has the value of a book been defined yet? Because that’s a major sticking point. It seems like, you know, just a few months ago, we weren’t close to knowing what that value is or how it can even be determined. Have we gotten any closer to defining the value of a book or of a even of a of a data set?
Jane Friedman [00:38:45]:
Yeah. I think it’s tough because I think it depends on the purpose of the model, the sort of book that we’re talking about, and what the author demands just like what the New York Times thought its material was worth. So there are different perceptions, and I don’t think there is, like, a market standard. That said, with Harper Collins gosh. I’m probably not gonna remember the exact figure. But it was what? What, around $5,000 a title? Someone in the chat can correct
Jim Azevedo [00:39:12]:
Something like that. Yeah. I do remember something along those lines.
Jane Friedman [00:39:16]:
So to me that’s I mean some people saw that figure and they were like that’s insulting. It’s disgusting. I can’t believe they’re getting away with offering such a low figure. And other people who might have, I don’t know, 10 or 20 books with Harper Collins that aren’t really earning that much money now because it’s just old backlist or like
Jim Azevedo [00:39:35]:
Yeah. Backlist stuff.
Jane Friedman [00:39:36]:
You know what? I’ll take that $25,000 for not doing anything. So if, you know, everyone is gonna have a different perspective on this, but I do think it’s still a little up in the air, and it’s all context driven.
Jim Azevedo [00:39:50]:
Yeah. Okay. Time is flying. I knew this was gonna happen with you. Let’s see. Let’s see. Let’s see. I’m gonna get some I was gonna ask some more of my own questions, but I’m like, you know what? Let’s let’s get to the audience here.
Jim Azevedo [00:40:04]:
I don’t wanna be super duper stingy. Let me bring up a question from Debbie Lang. Debbie, thank you for your question, and thanks for joining us today. Debbie asked, what is the best way to gain visibility on a tight budget, especially in smaller genres, like maybe historical mystery? Do you have anything you can add there, Jane?
Jane Friedman [00:40:24]:
Well, actually I would say the smaller the genre or the more niche, the easier it is on you to reach those people because the pool of comparable titles or authors is smaller. Generally, if you decide to advertise, which is one way of getting visibility, the fees are going to be lower because you’re in a smaller area. But so much here depends on what existing media serves that niche. If you don’t wanna spend money on advertising or if your budget doesn’t allow for advertising, what I would say is try to find the podcasts that serve that audience. Look for any Substacks or newsletters that serve that audience. Are there any YouTube channels that really drill down into that? So all of that research starts with knowing who your comparable titles or authors are. Hopefully, you know that, Debbie. And then once you have some names and titles, I would go into things like listen notes, which is a a podcast search engine.
Jane Friedman [00:41:23]:
Look to see where those authors have appeared. Do a Google news search for those titles and authors. Do a substack search, etcetera. So just TikTok search, Instagram search, like go down the whole list of media and outlets and look at where the conversations are happening. Look for the message boards, look for the gatherings. And that’s where you can get what I would call the more, like, earned publicity or earned attention where maybe there’s something there’s some way you can contribute or be featured. And then if you can’t find enough opportunity there, that’s when I would move into thinking about advertising. Whether that’s advertising in some of those places that I mentioned, which I think can be a really good bet.
Jane Friedman [00:42:06]:
Or if you learn or acquire the skills, you can try some tests, on Amazon ads, Facebook ads, BookBub ads. You can look at tools, and communities like story origin. If you can find other authors in your subgenre, you can do promotions together. You can bundle some free stories or free novellas or free whatever together in an effort to get more people onto your email newsletter letter list. So those those are some of these places that I would start.
Jim Azevedo [00:42:36]:
Great answer. Great answer. Thank you again for the question, Debbie. Bring up the next one here from, Barbara. Barbara, thanks, to your question too. Barbara asks, is it legal for an author to use images from an Internet site for a research purpose in their book and then publish that book with those images?
Jane Friedman [00:42:54]:
Not unless the image is not under copyright. And most images that you find online are in fact protected under copyright. So you have to figure out who the copyright owner is and ask for permission to use it, and they may say, fine. Go ahead. Make sure you credit me, and they’ll give you the credit information, or they may ask you to pay a fee. But I would never assume that images or writing of any kind that you find online is just available for you to use in your own book. You need that permission. Now you can talk about it.
Jane Friedman [00:43:25]:
Like, you can say, I found an image at this link that demonstrates my point and not reproduce it in the book, and then you don’t have to worry about getting permission. But as soon as you’re reproducing something, you you do have to ask.
Jim Azevedo [00:43:41]:
Okay. I’ll bring up a question from one of our own. Our own Lexi Green asks, what do you think is the biggest way the industry has changed over the last ten years?
Jane Friedman [00:43:53]:
Well, that’s a big one. Okay. So That’s
Jim Azevedo [00:43:55]:
a big one.
Jane Friedman [00:43:56]:
20 15. I mean, something I’ve been in talking about a lot lately, especially in the last couple years, which doesn’t stretch back ten, but I do feel like it’s a big difference and something that’s been building over time.
Jim Azevedo [00:44:13]:
K.
Jane Friedman [00:44:15]:
How traditional publishers are partnering with self publishing authors. And so I I can name probably a dozen authors right now that within the past two years have partnered with, like, Sourcebooks, one
Jim Azevedo [00:44:30]:
of the
Jane Friedman [00:44:30]:
big five, to get their print work out into, you know, retail channels or for foreign rights or, international distribution of some kind. We’ve seen the growth also of publishers outside of the big five that are really adept at working with independent authors like Podium is is one example. And that they’re not alone. There are others like them. And you know when I started in the industry not only was there a stigma associated with self publishing but it was really hard for self publishing authors to cross over into drip into traditional much less do both traditional and self publish at the same time. That is becoming more and more accepted and common and smart for the author to like hang on to some portion of their digital rights and then give, you know, license effectively the print distribution or print rights to the pub to a traditional publisher who has that domain mastered. It’s, you know, it’s so fascinating to me and such a big change because when I look at, let’s say, who the top 50 best selling romance authors right now in the independent space, I guarantee you 90 to 95% of them have a literary agent, even though they are I would primarily consider them an independent author. Now why do they have an agent? Because they want someone to facilitate right sales and subsidiary rights and all the rest of it.
Jim Azevedo [00:46:04]:
That’s a great comment. I’m glad you brought that up.
Jane Friedman [00:46:07]:
Yeah. And you also have literary agents who specialize just in that for indie authors. So for me, it is one of the best good news stories for authors since I’ve been in the business.
Jim Azevedo [00:46:21]:
Fantastic. Do you think that, and this is kinda goes back to I think it was Debbie who asked the question. Do you think that the sort of the tried and true way that books are brought to market, has changed forever? What I mean by that is the book launches, the book signings, you know, getting the New York Times bestseller because of all of these different alternative media outlets?
Jane Friedman [00:46:43]:
Yeah. That has also changed dramatically. I would say it was our if if I use the ten year rule of thumb, it was already changing by 2015, but it’s totally different now. I mean, all I have to do is say TikTok and people understand what I mean about, how book discovery has changed because it’s book talk that has been driving the, at least in part, fiction sales growth. So, you know, there’s media fragmentation today. People do not pay attention to the mainstream media the same way that they did ten years ago or twenty years ago. The New York Times has even come out and said point blank, you know, a review on the cover of our book review just doesn’t sell copies
Jim Azevedo [00:47:23]:
the way it used to. What?
Jane Friedman [00:47:26]:
Yeah. And so there’s just so much more investment in what your community is saying or reading or what this influencer is saying or reading, rather than what does that professional critic say. Like, who cares what the professional critic says? I wanna know what what my favorite book talk person says or what my favorite author even says. Yeah.
Jim Azevedo [00:47:45]:
What my community says.
Jane Friedman [00:47:47]:
Exactly.
Jim Azevedo [00:47:48]:
Yeah. I mean, I hear book talk, but my in my head, I’m I’m hearing influencer because it’s not just book talk. It’s influencers and other media as well.
Jane Friedman [00:47:57]:
That’s absolutely correct. Yeah.
Jim Azevedo [00:47:59]:
Okay. Gosh. We’re already at time. I can’t believe it. I just wanna remind people where they can find you. Janefreedman.com. Write down that website, everybody. I’ll give you a second.
Jim Azevedo [00:48:12]:
Do it because there there’s a ton of resources there. You can find links to her, what, to your talks that you’re giving, to the upcoming book or the upcoming edition of the book. Let’s see. You can find Jane at YouTube by going to youtube.com at janefreedman. Check her out there. And for those of you nonfiction authors out there, you can follow Jane at LinkedIn. Another second to write those down. Jane, thank you so very, very much for being here.
Jim Azevedo [00:48:49]:
I so appreciate you, and I’m sure our audience does too. As a matter of fact, what I’m just going to offer you a monthly guest appearance on Sunshine and Saturday, and this was so helpful. I I think it was just so helpful. It was a wonderful, delightful conversation with you. So please come back and visit us as often as you like to talk about whatever you like.
Jane Friedman [00:49:11]:
I will. Thank you so much, Jim. I always enjoy talking with you and and anyone at Draft2Digital. I really appreciate it.
Jim Azevedo [00:49:17]:
No. Well, we appreciate you too and all the work that you do on behalf of the authors out there. If you can just hang on for a second, I’m gonna go through some of our closing statements here. For our audience out there, I noticed some new names in the audience today out there watching and listening. So thank you guys for joining us. Welcome to the community here. For those of you who are are watching via YouTube, if you can like, share, comment, and subscribe to the channel, we really appreciate it because we we get to offer experts like Jane coming on and sharing their wisdom and expertise with you. If you like, you can bookmark d2dlive.com because that’ll tell you what the next topic is going to be in subsequent weeks and who the guest is going to be.
Jim Azevedo [00:50:01]:
And then finally, for those of you who are dipping your toe into the self publishing waters, you can sign up for a free Draft2Digital account simply by going to draft, that’s drft,thenumbertwo,digital.com. Jane, if you can hang out just for a second, I’ll meet you backstage. We’ll have some snacks and a drink. Everybody else, thank you so very, very much for joining. We will hopefully see you next week. And, also, for those of you who are authors out there, the Smashwords reading ebook week sale is coming up the March. That’s March. Readers, if you’re listening and you are a reader, check out the sale because there are a lot of those indie best selling authors out there who have their books at Smashwords and are going to heavily discount their books.
Jim Azevedo [00:50:53]:
So check that out. We will see you here again next week. Thanks so much, everybody. Bye bye.
Kevin Tumlinson [00:51:02]:
Ebooks are great, but there’s just something about having your words in print. Something you can hold in your hands, put on a shelf, sign for a reader. That’s why we created D2D Print, a print on demand service that was built for you. We have free beautiful templates to give your book a pro look, and we can even convert your ebook cover into a full wrap around cover for print. So many options for you and your books. And you can get started right now at Draft2Digital.com.com. That’s it for this week’s self publishing insiders with Draft2Digital. Be sure to subscribe to us wherever you listen to podcasts and share the show with your will be author friends, and start, build, and grow your own self publishing career right now at draft2digital.com.